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> Suggestion: New Rogue Armors, Endgame rogue armors are decidedly lacking.
althai
Posted: Jun 9 2006, 10:21 PM
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So, arQon and I were discussing that there are no good endgame rogue armors on DN. The best rogue armor in the game, apart from legacy gear, is actually a wizard robe. Which is just wrong. Robes of the shadow mountain are decent, but they don't have what most rogues are most in need of - increased saving throws, and mostly just have skills which rogues don't need (spellcraft?) or don't need more of, and charges of skills which are nice, but charges on a 100k item just seem silly: you'd be much better off just buying scrolls. So, I'd like to request that one or more new rogue armors be made. In fact, here are some ideas. If you like any of them, I'd be happy to add in some fluff and turn them into ERFs.

Rogue Armor 1:

Base Armor: Cloth
Armor +4
Fortitude +2
Will +2
Discipline +8
Hide +8
Move Silently +8
Listed price: 78500 (in toolset)
Required Level 18

As it is, this is about even with archmage robes in terms of usability, with some advantages and some disadvantages (which is good; some rogues would stick with archmage robes, and some would switch to this), but has much more of a rogue flavor. If the armor bonus were bumped up to +5, it would be better than archmage robes, and would cost 95258, and require level 19.

Rogue Armor 2: Not as good general stats, but has cleave as a bonus feat for those free extra attacks!

Base Armor: Cloth
Armor +5
Dex +2
Discipline +5
Bonus Feat: Cleave
Listed Price: 70729
Required Level 17

Bonus feats are rare on DN gear, but cleave is pretty low-powered as feats go, and has shown up on other items such as paladin cloaks, and most rogues get plenty of attacks per round as is.

Rogue Armor 3: Some nice DR, but no better than is available on adamantine rings

Base Armor: Cloth
Armor +5
+5 soak 5 damage
Saving Throw Bonus: +1 universal
Listed Price: 121772
Required Level 20

This is possibly the best of the rogue armors here, due to having both saves and DR, but the DR is no better than what is available on other items around DN.

David


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althai
Posted: Nov 7 2006, 06:35 AM
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Bump. Is the build team thinking about adding any new rogue armors to DN any time soon? I really think the first one would be a nice addition, and would give a good competing alternative to archmage robes, so not every rogue would be wearing wizard robes. The other two are also decent, but are probably less likely to see use. If the reason we haven't seen new rogue armors is simply that it's not a priority, then I would be happy to create an .erf with stats and fiction and send it to someone on the design team.

David


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arQon
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 05:37 AM
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I'd definitely like to see some new Rogue gear, but, sorry, these are just "arms race" items that range from "better than anything else in the world" to "MUCH better than anything else in the world" with the possible exception of Bastion.

You need to rethink them significantly. "Aspect X is no better than Item A" stops being a valid argument as soon as you start combining Item A with Items B and C and D and bundling them all into one UberItam. The point is that players need to make tradeoffs: it's why the only Immunity items for DeathMagic and MindSpells are both belts, so you CAN'T have your cake and eat it too.


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althai
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 07:07 AM
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I'm not a designer, so it doesn't surprise me that they require some tweaking. I think the best one to look at is the first - the other two were me trying to come up with some more creative items that will be used on some different builds, but the first one was supposed to be a "general purpose rogue armor, about equivalent to archmage."

I think it should be designed to do about the same things as archmages do, have more of a rogueish feel, and have some advantages and disadvantages comparitively, so some characters will switch and some won't. Of course, by definition this means it has to be better than archmages on some characters, but not as good on others, so on the one hand, I am making it "better" than the existing items in the mod, at least for some characters. If it wasn't, there would be no point - we'd just get yet another rogue armor that nobody ever uses.

If you compare the first robe to archmage, you gain 1 fort, 1 will, and some skills, but lose 1 ac, which is a tradeoff. It may be a tradeoff in favor of the rogue on most chars, but probably not all - if you hide a lot, you probably want saves more than ac, and the skills are also nice. If you're designed as more of a party character without HiPS, like rogue/arcane archers or less sneaky weapon-finessing fighter/rogues who are designed to actually mix it up in combat and get sneaks on knocked down monsters or with a party, you're probably better off with the ac. You could make it more of a tradeoff by reducing the ac boost to 3, and/or reducing the +skills. I wouldn't mind seeing it toned down slightly, but I also don't want to see it toned down so much that it's not worth it and everyone sticks with archmage robes.

David


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dave
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 08:09 AM
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Trading off 1 reflex save for 1 extra fort and 1 extra will isn't a trade off for a rogue. It isn't a bad design, but don't call it a tradeoff. smile.gif Rogues are pretty much immune to reflex-save attacks regardless of which armor they take.

I am not a fan of the skill bonuses. Cloth armors have inherent bonuses for any properly built rogue because DEX bonus to DEX based rogue skills are uncapped in cloth armor. The 24 free skill points, in addition to not needing UMD to use this, really pushes this over the top to me. I'd make the skill bonuses much more modest, or remove them at all.

What if we went with a +3 armor with +2-3 fort/+3 will and maybe a minor CON bonus, as Vic suggested in channnel? Some other minor mod could get tossed in, but the minor mods need pretty careful consideration too once we get into designing anything with a level req over 15 or so, methinks.

-Dave



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Strider
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 09:34 AM
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I'm really only paying half-attention to this, but I'd like to throw out a comment.

Remember that the intention is rogue gear for engame. IE - gear thats *useable* past level 15/20. Yes this could turn into an arms race, but we also don't want to create something near-useless like alot of the current rogue clothing in the game already.

Also remember the fact we can TIR stuff if we want to give "rogues" something, but not allow multi-class-munchkins (like myself) access to it.

Rogue armor isn't exactly easy sciene either. smile.gif


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althai
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE (dave @ Nov 8 2006, 10:09 AM)
Trading off 1 reflex save for 1 extra fort and 1 extra will isn't a trade off for a rogue.  It isn't a bad design, but don't call it a tradeoff. smile.gif  Rogues are pretty much immune to reflex-save attacks regardless of which armor they take.

I wasn't saying the reflex save was the tradeoff, I was saying the ac point was - remember archamge robes are +5. I never mentioned the reflex point at all, since clearly for a high-level rogue, +1 all saves is essentially the same as +1 fort/will.

QUOTE
What if we went with a +3 armor with +2-3 fort/+3 will and maybe a minor CON bonus, as Vic suggested in channnel?  Some other minor mod could get tossed in, but the minor mods need pretty careful consideration too once we get into designing anything with a level req over 15 or so, methinks.

A +3 cloth armor with +2 fort, +3 will, and +2 con is definitely end-game viable, even with no other minor mods - to me it seems even better than the armor I designed. Without the con bonus, and with +3 fort/will, sounds just about right to me in terms of game-value. The one thing I would like to see, not for gameplay reasons, but for flavor reasons, is some ability which says "this armor belongs on a rogue and not some other cloth-wearing character" - perhaps a minor boost one or two less-used rogue skills, like disable trap?

David


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dave
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 10:48 AM
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It's easy enough to make an armor rogue only.

Is switching from +5 mage UMD clothing to +3/+3 saves rogue armor much different from swapping out the +5 AC cloak for a +3AC/+3 saves cloak? ie. Can we already do that? [I forget if those cloaks are Bioware OC only or if we sell them].

-Dave


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althai
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (dave @ Nov 8 2006, 12:48 PM)
It's easy enough to make an armor rogue only.

I meant that I would like there to be a reason that the armor actually belongs on a rogue, and not just a rogue-only use restriction. In otherwords, I think that it should be clear that whoever initially enchanted the clothing did so with stealthy backstabbing thieves in mind, and not for monastary-dwellers or dual-wielding, outdoorsy PETA-members.

QUOTE
Is switching from +5 mage UMD clothing to +3/+3 saves rogue armor much different from swapping out the +5 AC cloak for a +3AC/+3 saves cloak?  ie. Can we already do that?  [I forget if those cloaks are Bioware OC only or if we sell them].

Not really. DN does have cloaks of fortification up to +3. But who's to say you're using a +5 ac cloak? There are more places to get deflection AC than there are places to get armor AC, so it's reasonable to expect that people care less about armor from a cloak slot than from an armor slot. Also, +6 armor cloaks are available via Grilka, but +6 armors are not.

David


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Phage
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 08:58 PM
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For what it's worth, there are just about four types of adventurers who would use cloth armors:
-Rogues
-Bards
-Monks
-Wizards and Sorcs
(I count rangers within the broad category 'rogue') I exclude druids because they typically don't have enough DEX to push toward cloth armor.

If you're looking at a 'flavor' reason to make it rogue armor... you don't need to make it manifest on the item mods. That's what the name and description is for wink.gif You can just give it a dark tone and make it come from some underground dweller or something. Mods are a plus but remember, your dark item smither may have no more reason to make a particular armor for a rogue as for to compensate for their (perceived) weakness smile.gif I've actually used this to justify the existence of the Elven Combat Boots.

Anyway, anything you should make up for the rogue must take into account at least three of the categories above: rogues, bards, and arcane casters. Rogues are of course the target audience. Bards are the second most likely group to use the armor - they have UMD just like rogues do, too. Just about everyone can take one rogue level freely and gain access to the armor - wizards and sorcs, however (and I'm really talking more about wizards here) are the ones that could really use cloth armor out of those possible others *and* compensate for any possible weakness (like AC +3? No problem, cast Mage Armor!) So... think about it wink.gif


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arQon
Posted: Nov 10 2006, 01:23 AM
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After poking around a little, I'm with Vic: the concern ISN'T just "there are not good Rogue armors" - it's "there are no good LIGHT/CLOTH armors".

It's fairly obvious why not: when the world was first built, Fleetness was available, and an AC1+3 Haste item was (is) so OVERWHELMINGLY uber that there's basically no point even bothering to make anything else, because it'll just never get used.

The Rogue classes (which absolutely do NOT include Ranger: I don't know what Vic is smoking) at least have the option of UMDing pretty much any item they feel like, which makes all the standard and ATS "monk" outfits available to them. A DEX-based Ranger, which is my current baby, has NO armors available AT ALL, because neither the world nor ATS has any "cloth" items, only "mage outfits" and "monk outfits" with class restrictions. And by none, I mean NONE: there isn't even "Generic Cloth +X" the way there is Padded through FullPlate in the standard items set.

Realistically, this is one problem with several facets. Bards are actually better off than most, because since they get the correct ASF rules on DN they can wear Padded and Leather without problems, and very few will have the 28+ DEX "required" for cloth. Mages have ample +SpellSlot robes thanks to ATS, plus all the BW Mage outfits, so they're not hurting either.

So on reflection, I'm not interested in "Rogue Armors" at all. If someone's going to invest effort in new designs, they should simply be designs for AC0-2 armors. As far as AC0 goes, there's already a set of "monk" items in the Cybele Temple that have +WIS bonuses, which translates into +Will saves, and any competent Rogue could already be using those. I'd much rather remove the (fairly arbitrary) class restrictions on those and the ATS "monk" robes than add new ones simply for the sake of adding new ones. Certainly so for the ATS items (this is something I've ranted about in the past) because at least if there was a Cloth analog to Myrk Plate, there'd always be SOMETHING to wear.


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azmaveth> so, for my first stint as a dm, I feel the need to spawn a dragon or two on a party of babies...
dave> go find Kev when he makes his next baby :p
dave> he prolly kill it
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Emaleth_Donnelaith
Posted: Nov 10 2006, 05:37 AM
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QUOTE (arQon @ Nov 10 2006, 04:23 AM)
As far as AC0 goes, there's already a set of "monk" items in the Cybele Temple that have +WIS bonuses, which translates into +Will saves, and any competent Rogue could already be using those. I'd much rather remove the (fairly arbitrary) class restrictions on those and the ATS "monk" robes than add new ones simply for the sake of adding new ones. Certainly so for the ATS items (this is something I've ranted about in the past) because at least if there was a Cloth analog to Myrk Plate, there'd always be SOMETHING to wear.

I'm with you on that too Kev, except I'd still keep the Platinum as Monk only.. just because it is the high-end Monk robe to wear or we'd have everyone wearing that and ignoring the others. :-)

There are alot of ATS monk robes that would work great if the restrictions were off, that and people would make or buy them from Player Vendors too ( I certainly would make Duster, Chev & Strider offers to make me a few heh heh) and would give more incentive to have them on the vendors even though there are Monks running around, most tend to wear the temple stuff. The ATS mage cloths I believe help spell slots, concentration, spellcraft.. caster specific things, but the ATS monks hmm... I think they have things too like hide & move silently, etc that would work for Dexy cloth wearers along with ele resist too on some of them.

A couple of rogues I used to have, one when she was 15 would with her UMD/Int, etc could get her AC 50+ iirc (lol was a couple of years ago) and she was just rogue (go go using Scrolls!). Caitlin, although she does have a couple fighter levels, with her 19 on rogue can hmm I think she gets close to 50 and she doesn't use scrolls at all... but I also depend on her sneaky skills too, so Uber AC isn't what she is looking for. And I have seen alot of rogues in my time who had better AC than my tanks..lol, so it is possible if you have the building/playing skills and eq with what DN has now.. and there is even more stuff than back then. It is out there, and I think most folks too forget a certain merchant by an abandoned(?) city with a locked gate guarded by a couple of golems. I have several extra armors at home from that little man which are good too.

If the designers do decide to take off Monk restrictions on the ATS Monk cloths though in the future.. I'd be willing to volunteer and do the fixes on them and removing it. :-) Even some of the lower/mid temple cloths with the Wis boosts would be very nice for Rangers to have if they go cloth and with that they can wear the Ranger coats for the AC to complement.

Hmmm not sure, but a ATS Yellow Monk is like a Myrk isn't it? I'd have to look, I know Yellow Mages have regen on them. My wizzie wears one, thanks to the wonderful craftmanship if a certain Klingon who I commissioned it from :-)

EDIT: Case & Point Dustbunny hasn't played in a couple of years (even thoguh it shows 1/2006) and his rogue shows 48 AC. I know he probably got more AC too buffed, cripes lol he always solo'd everywhere.. even GG.

This post has been edited by Emaleth_Donnelaith on Nov 10 2006, 05:46 AM


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arQon
Posted: Nov 10 2006, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (Emaleth_Donnelaith @ Nov 10 2006, 04:37 AM)
Case & Point Dustbunny hasn't played in a couple of years (even thoguh it shows 1/2006) and his rogue shows 48 AC.

Dustbunny's rogue is wearing Legacy Leetness. I rest my case. tongue.gif


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azmaveth> so, for my first stint as a dm, I feel the need to spawn a dragon or two on a party of babies...
dave> go find Kev when he makes his next baby :p
dave> he prolly kill it
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Emaleth_Donnelaith
Posted: Nov 10 2006, 08:00 AM
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:-P Regardless, with the right skills & eq a rogue can get plenty and if they want more, I'll still stick with the suggestions of ATS Monk cloths & maybe the Wis temple cloths as enough imo for more cloth options on DN.

And isn't a rogue generally supposed to focus on sneak attack tactics & their other nice feats & skills and not worry so much about the AC? Then again I am used to playing my sneaky types as support to the other players in the party (sneaking who tanks fight or healing/raising them when needed) and not to get all Uber-esque to go running off on my own lol, that's what I have always done.. 'course this too comes from one who works to get more saves & other things and not the AC as I'm sure all my characters could do much better in that department but to me that's not important, heh eh from low AC on most of mine that's kinda obvious :-) Although I do do alot of 'wow-ing' & 'cool-ing' when I do make a character who has decent AC (most all if not all of them from build suggestions from you & Neil Kev, lol).

Ok, kinda going off-track here Kathy...


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dave
Posted: Nov 10 2006, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE (arQon @ Nov 10 2006, 04:23 AM)
I'd much rather remove the (fairly arbitrary) class restrictions on those and the ATS "monk" robes than add new ones simply for the sake of adding new ones.

Agreed, but there may not even much point in that. Most characters interested in that type of armor will likely already have UMD or Legend Lore. I guess dex-Rangers may be an exception, but I think they are fine at the moment anyway, no?

-Dave


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